What You Need to Know before Hauling Water in the Oilpatch
97Tackling North Dakota
What do you need to know to get your trucks properly equipped for hauling water in the oilpatch, be that in North Dakota's current drilling boom or in any other area? A friend who owns a trucking company asked that question today.
Here's what I told him.
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I understand your confusion and yes, I can clarify things a bit.
1. There are some trailers with vacuum pumps mounted on them.
2. You don't want that. What you do need is to have a vacuum pump mounted on the tractor, behind the cab--in any one of several possible specific positions. These are PTO driven, and there are huge differences in cost, capacity, durability, and general pain-in-the-assness between brands. I've been out of the game since April of 2009, so don't know about inflation and/or competition, but last I knew, adding a pump to your existing tractor would run you somewhere in the $10,000 range.
3. Why you need the pump to be on the tractor: Much more flexibility, for one thing. Most companies require you to have your own trailer, but there are a few who will let you pull their trailers. And while some pumps are indeed trailer-mounted as mentioned above, most of those in current use (unless things have changed drastically) are still tractor mounted. Obviously, if you're pulling the other guy's trailer, and it has a pump, use his and save yours!
I don't know how they power the trailer mounted units; obviously not via PTO.
4. Most "standard" oilpatch vacuum semi trailers are in fact 130 barrel units. A few ultralight units exist in the 140 barrel size, but in my book, the owner who purchases an ultralight for the oilfield is out of his mind. He may find more work--company owners love being able to have you haul more water every trip--but the patch is hardcore tough on equipment. You need some heavy duty underpinnings.
If you're sending an OTR (over the road) tractor to the patch, just adding a pump first, be ready to break a few axles and springs, etc., until you swap them out for heavy duty replacements.
5. Any driver new to the patch will need a bit of training to haul water. I'll list just a few things to remember--you might want to print out the list for future reference. There's more to it, but this would be a start:
WATER HAULING: A FEW TIPS
A. The vacuum pumps all have a handle which "pushes" water in one position, "pulls" it in the other, and is "neutral" in between.
B. Some pump designs will tolerate "slamming" from push to pull (or vice versa) on the fly; others will not. If one driver seems to be busting up a lot of pumps for no apparent reason, check his/her technique.
C. Water is generally taken on (and delivered) through one of two four-inch pipes situated at the rear of the trailer.
D. The essential pressure gauge (for delivery) should be clearly visible to a driver standing near the rear of the trailer.
E. You'll need a full set of heavy duty hoses designed for water hauling and able to withstand a reasonable amount of pressure. Not the super-intense numbers put out during a frac job (where huge pump trucks slam fracturing liquids downhole to break up rock formations), but at least 50 psi. As a driver, I found myself unwilling to leave the truck yard without at least 60 feet of 4-inch hose on board, plus at least 30 feet of 3-inch.
F. Various hose fittings are also essential. If it were me, I'd snag a contract first, then go ask a working hand for that company: "What do you guys consider an adequate fittings list?" Then take that list to the nearest store specializing in oilpatch "stuff"...hoping your check doesn't bounce.
G. A lot of water trailers come with sight tubes. These are vertical columns of clear plexiglass that show you the level of water in the tank--at the back end, anyway; if the trailer is not sitting level, they're obviously less accurate--at a glance. They're crucial accessories...until the temperature drops far enough to freeze the water in them and they burst. To avoid that, the driver shuts off a couple of valves and drains the tube, which of course means they're worthless in subzero weather and it's back to guesswork. A few trailers are now available with sight "bubbles" or other clear view ports built into the tank itself. Those sound like they might be a better deal...but I've never had the chance to work with one.
H. A common alternative to the sight tube is the float-driven gauge. The float is inside the tank--much like the float in your home toilet tank. A rod extends through the tank wall, a pointer is attached to swivel as the float rises and falls...and you've got a gauge. Until the seal around the rod starts to leak. Or the float ceases to go up and down like it should, sometimes just sticking, or springing a leak and sinking.
I. Air pressure: Here's where nothing but a bit of training and a lot of experience will help your drivers...and sometimes not even that will do the job. When blowing off a load, it's common to run somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 psi. But in many situations, that's way, way, too high. If you're blowing fresh water into a 400 barrel upright for a drilling rig to use, you can pretty much rock and roll until the tank is nearly full to the brim.
Note on experience or the lack thereof: It doesn't always matter. In December of 2006, my fifth day on the job, hauling fresh water to a rig drilling on Long Ridge in Colorado, I was blowing off a load under full pressure into an upright storage tank. Suddenly the 4-inch fitting which coupled the hose to the trailer pipe split in half. The resulting water cannon hit me full force, knocking me to the ground and spinning my hard hat more than forty feet across frozen ground before it came to rest under a pickup truck. That time, fortunately, it happened in the middle of the day and the sun was shining.
Then again, in February of 2009, the timing and weather weren't so kind. While delivering a load (though to a different location), I was knocked down once again by a hose problem. This time the fitting held, but the hose slipped the clamps and popped off the fitting. The force of the water was such that I had to roll out of the blast before I could get my feet under me.
It was around midnight, and the temp was hovering around 10 degrees Fahrenheit.
That's fresh water. But if you're hauling some of the stuff that comes up out of the wellhead, taking it from a frac tank at one location to a different frac tank at another location, look out. Some of that stuff--depending on the hole from which it came--is really nasty, hardly water at all but a chemical concoction dreamed up by the Fire Demons living deep in Mother Earth. With the worst of it, using15 psi when the receiving tank has only a foot or two to go may result in all sorts of ugly running over and spilling on the ground, creating an incident . This is truly Heads Up Territory. I've seen fired-up water in a frac tank continue to swirl and slosh violently for up to an hour before finally settling down! And if that slosh sloshes over, gets your customer and the State involved?
Trouble in River City!
Hint: Make sure there's room left in the top of that tank and cut your pumping pressure down to somewhere around 5 psi. (Which usually means opening an air release valve a bit and protecting your ears; the pumps themselves have no pressure adjustments as such.)
I'm thinking this is enough for one day. Please feel free to keep on asking questions.
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They're using even more water than the non-shale drilling, frac, etc. uses? THAT certainly ought to mean a bonanza for water haulers!
Everything I've discussed here, though, pertains to drilling vs. water usage as it has existed for many decades, since long before shale extraction technology was developed...and is thus applicable to any oilpatch, not just the Bakken (or other shale operation).
Interesting and something all should read before deciding to take a water hauling job.
During my employment as a water hauler, I seriously considered writing a hardcore training manual for new hires. Could be this Hub is the first installment; we'll see.
My leader has 20 tactors and tank trailers in WI. We are liquid waste removal specialists, wich means high class shit haulers (we stay at Best Western). We haul sludge outa sewer plants,water from canning factorys, whey outa cheese factorys and a buncha other stuff here in WI. I am wondering if anyone needs us in the oil industry. Could we send a truck out west to haul frac sand or frac water? I kmow we need a trailer and would hafta get learned up on a lotta stuff. If we can get something good for 1 truck I think he would be willing to send more. We like to go around the clock 7 days a week, cause thats what we do here. We would damn sure stick with a co. that will treat us right. That means a decent money and not waiting 6 months for a check. Getting something started here is my project and I would be coming with the first truck. I have machinery hauling experience also, and a strong back so when Im not holding on to the steering wheel I can be on the ground at the real work. We got references and I can run the chinery to. If anyone would like maybe try us out, give me call 715 896 4742 BOO
Booboo: I don't have a specific lead for you BUT can tell you what I'd do in your place. I'd send a top man (maybe the boss himself) out to New Town (ND) to sniff around. Take a few days, maybe a week. Boots on the ground, getting the feel of the lay of the land, meeting people, talking to workers--THAT will make it clear whether or not moving a rig to North Dakota would be worth it.
Personally, I suspect it would be. But if possible, I'd do the recon first. Save a lot of time, energy, and even money that way. There's a ton of work out there, mostly generated by the (as of today) 172 rigs actively drilling for oil. That many derricks can generate a LOT of need for water haulers and the like, and with you being experienced hauling machinery as well, you've got some real options.
Thanks for sharing your time and experience.
You're welcome. It does me good to do it. Keeps me connected to the oilpatch.
How is the demand for Frac tanks thinking of going into business for myself.
I don't know specifically--but with nearly 200 rigs currently drilling in the state, there's got to be considerable frac tank demand.
Ghost32, Nice general lay of the land information. It's not rocket science but so many things have to be done RIGHT or you'll have an "incident". I have a step by step manual - emphasizing the need to do a routine. It doesn't go into the detail you have here...it just says do this, then that...and ALWAYS do it in the same order EVERY TIME. I'd love to get my hands on a more comprehensive manual. So, if you ever get one put together email me kfausett@hotmail.com (reference this website, I might forget I commented)
I had thought about doing a manual, back when I was still hauling water every day. Which would have been the right time to have at least been making notes for future reference. I'd need to at least go hang out on a run or two with another driver to "brush up my brain" before tackling a comprehensive manual (not wanting to miss something I'd otherwise surely forget to mention).
But I'll keep your email address handy, just in case I ever do.
Thanks for the interest.
Ghost32
Do you know the names of the companies that hire owner operators?
No, I don't. Again, the best way to pin those down is to "be there" and do the nasty legwork.
Why?
In part because that changes constantly among the smaller local or regional companies. I have seen classified ads in the area (especially in the Williston Herald and other area newspapers online) looking for owner operatiors, though. You might find a few leads that way.
Good info. I drove a vacuum truck myself for a short period of time. I'd imagine that up in the Bakken shale you'll need a set of tire chains from time to time too. It gets cold enough in South Texas, but I can't imagine all the things that would begin to freeze up and become difficult to deal with up there.
Exactly. Company drivers normally have the tire chains provided by the employer, but if you're an owner operator buying your own, I'd go with a full set of the heavy duty steel for at least the drive tires. With a bit of slush and/or mud globbed on, they can run up around 200 pounds, so it helps to know what you're doing when you throw 'em, but they last a LOT longer than the lightweight versions.
The lighter types don't do too badly for the singles used as drag chains on the trailers and on one steer tire. Also, of course, if you've got women (or smaller men, or one with a bad shoulder) then of course there's no option; you have to "settle" for the lightweights.
Things that freeze up a lot: You. Brake drums and/or brake lines. Tire chains (crusted ice can be a bit of a pain). Sight tubes on tanker trailers (they'll burst if left undrained). The four-inch and/or three-inch valves through which water is loaded and unloaded on the tanks and tankers. Hoses. Pipes of every sort at the drilling rig locations. Valves on the frac tanks. Valves on the upright tanks. The water in the frac tanks.
In other words, what you said.
Interesting and informative hub. I was wondering if you could go over some of the jargon or terms that are associated with water hauling and what they mean.
I could, I suppose, but it would add up to a separate Hub. Or, if done right, an entire multi-page manual. You're asking me to do an awful lot of work--is there a reason you need to research this?
Just a couple for now:
1. Bobtail. A truck that has the water tank mounted directly mounted on the truck chassis instead of being mounted on a separate semi trailer.
2. Drag chain. A tire chain (or set of chains) which has been hooked up on the outside rear tire (or dual tires) of a semi trailer in order to provide braking traction. Especially on downhill runs, the drag chain helps keep the trailer from sliding sideways under slick and dangerous driving conditions, especially on downhill runs.
See my point? This would not be a small task! LOL!
Hello I was just wondering where I could buy the heavy duty 4" hoses and fittings in san antonio area or online. We just bought a 130bbl pump is being installed but have no hoses
Thank You
Leroy, I don't know anybody in the Texas patch. However, by Googling two search terms, you should be able to find a few places to call. If they don't have the hoses, they may at least be able to tell you who does. The searches:
"Oilfield supply San Antonio"
and/or
"Oilfield water hoses for sale San Antonio"
WHEN PULLING HOSE OFF TRAILER DON'T LET ENDS SLAM THE GROUND THAT WILL BREAK THE ENDS YOU LOOSE CLAMPS, AND YOU START GETTING CRACKS IN THE ENDS. DON'T FOR GET THAT IF YOU DON'T WATCH THE GAUGES AND THEN YOU END UP WITH FULL HOSES AND IN THE COLD WEATHER FROZEN HOSES.AND YOUR TRY TO FIND A HEATED GARAGE TO PUT YOUR HOSES IN. NEVER HAULED IN THE OIL FIELD BUT DID HAUL WATER FROM FRAC TANKS WITH VAC PUMPS. DID WINTER HAULING STILL LOOKING FOR JOB N.D. TRY TO PICK UP OR PULL A 25-30 FT HOSE FULL OR IF YOUR LUCKY THATS ALL YOU GOT TO USE AND YOUR NOT GOT 5 OR 6 HOSES FULL. BEEN THERE DONE THAT HAD VAC PUMPS COME APART LOCK UP. IF YOU NEVER DONE IT STARTING OUT YOU WILL SO HAVE FUN.
Thanks, BDG; good hints.
Letting the ends slam the ground: Yes, that can be a real problem, and in the patch I often saw drivers who constantly violated that Golden Rule...producing a lot of busted fittings. Once, a cracked fitting (which I didn't know was cracked) split wide open while I was offloading a tanker into a 400 bbl upright. The resulting 4-inch cannon knocked me flat and sent my hardhat spinning off under a pickup. Took us several minutes to find the thing.
Extra hint: If you absolutely feel the need for speed so that you don't dare take the time to "walk" the hose down from the rack (or tray) on the trailer, there is a way to "drop" the hose end with minimal damage. Namely, make sure you're holding the female end (which also has the clamps attached) and let only the male end "roll off" to fall on the ground. It's less likely to break.
About not watching the gauges and ending up with full hoses: If that happens, you can usually throw the vacuum pump into neutral, let it wind down, then throw it into reverse--thus pumping some of the water back into the tank from whence it came until you've got your tanker back down to a reasonable fill level.
Just saying.
BDG is quite correct: You don't want to have to lift full hoses unless you're training for power lifting at the Olympics.
My husband is planning a new venture to buy a rig and is convinced that he will make alot more money this way. What is he going to need to get this going?
jmklinner: Part of the answer to your question is going to depend on what sort of rig he's figuring to buy. Details, please?
Note: When I set up my Sub S (one man) corporation with the intention of buying my own truck in Colorado, I'd crunched the numbers from every direction and knew that with a bobtail unit (straight truck with mounted tank, not tractor-trailer combo), I could triple my gross and double my net. Which I would have done, had not the industry's fear of Obama's election turned the boom into a bust (temporarily, but long enough to put the kibosh on my truck financing at the last second). Anyway, what I'm saying is, if he can get it going at all, he's right: He can make a lot more money with his own truck.
Regardless of what rig he buys, though, there are a few things he'll need for sure as regards "legal stuff":
1. His business name. That can be his own name as a sole proprietorship (which I do not recommend, but it can be done), or a Sub S corporation (my corp. name was Tryad Transport) or an LLC business organization (which I don't even understand clearly, except to know that it's good for partnerships--but for a Lone Wolf like me, the Sub S was better).
2. Truck insurance. We're talking thousands of dollars in annual premiums here.
3. A D.O.T. number issued by the state.
4. An I.R.S. tax number.
I'm probably forgetting a few things, but a bit of Googling and asking around--especially asking other owner operators--will get him the answers he needs.
What class type would I need to haul Water?
If you mean the type of CDL, it needs to be a Class A with "all the endorsements". Although sometimes you can get away without HazMat (not every company requires it), it's definitely beneficial to have it. (Some companies definitely DO require it.)
What's a good magazine a boy can subscribe to that would get himself more learned up on this oil stuff in the 48 states? Don t need one that be talkin bout Alaska oil or drilling in Camb
odia or on the moon just here in the U S. Don't gotta have anything about offshore oil either. Trade and industry magazines are a good place to find things out and might have interesting ads to.
No clue, Boo, but a quick Googling of "oil magazine" just now produced 181,000,000 results. Ought to be something in that mix worth reading.
Maybe we'll get some expert reviews on here eventually. In my case, I've never read an oil magazine of any sort in my life.
Yet.
What does it mean to pull bottom if your talking to a vac truck driver and also do u know what a sleek back trailer is I hear people talk about them but I don't know what they are
Mg23: When you "pull bottom", you're getting the dregs out of the very bottom of a tank--often a frac tank. Some of these tanks accumulate slimy sludge in the bottom that is...impressive, to say the least. To pull bottom is to basically move that sludge from the tank into your tanker.
Which is generally NOT something you want to do unless you're specifically ASSIGNED to that task.
"Sleek back trailer"--haven't heard that one. (It may not have hit my hearing simply because I never pulled one.)
So I've heard rumors that you need hazmat in order to run oil based mud but I've also heard of companies that do without... Did the company you ran with have hazmat?
In a perfect world what would would your water hauling truck be? Bobtail vs. tractor trailer. How many gallons/barrels would you be able to haul at a time? What is the going fee for an owner/operator? Is it based on per hour, per mile, per gallon, or per barrel?...
Frank Morris: It wasn't that "the company" had HazMat--it's the individual driver who carries that endorsement. At the time I drove for them, they were seldom hauling a load that was considered particularly hazardous, and I personally did not have the HazMat endorsement (having let mine lapse after it became necessary to pay the Govt. to investigate me, which irritated me somewhat).
However, I'm getting the distinct impression that you're probably not going to get by in North Dakota (with very many companies, anyway) without the HazMat endorsement. If I were planning to head to the Bakken, I'd definitely pick that back up.
It was required by the OTR company I pulled for in 2001-2002, and I did have it back then.
JLS1064: I can only go by my Colorado experience plus one comment from a poster to this Hub who stated that bobtail units don't seem to be in much demand in North Dakota. That may be true. In Colorado, they had a solid market niche because of being able to get in and out of places tractor-trailer units couldn't.
Based on that, all I can say for my "ideal" unit is that I'd prefer a bobtail (for a number of reasons including net profit) over a tractor-trailer IF there's an adquate market. For North Dakota, I'd need to be in the area and talking to thirty or forty people (who knew what they were talking about--drivers and company hands, etc.) before making up my mind.
The Colorado "standard" for bobtails: 80 barrel tanks.
For semi-trailer tankrs: 130 barrel tanks.
Our company had several 100 barrel bobtails, prized for their ability to move more water at one time than most bobtails could. But they also broke down more often. The extra size and weight makes a difference in that arena.
Note: I would NOT trust my own thinking on this without talking to people IN North Dakota first.
Going rates vary between companies and from boom to boom. It's paid as so much per hour per truck-plus-driver. In late 2008, when I had hoped to have my own bobtail, the going rate (with our company) was around $95 to my employer from the oil company and something like $85 an hour to me (or would have been). Tractor-trailer units were paying $10-$20 higher per hour.
But I don't know the exact scale in ND, and it's always competitive between trucking companies--free market and all that. Some will shave their prices to get work, only to prove they don't do the job well and get fired after a short time. Others sometimes find their prices too high and lose business because of that.
It's not a fixed number.
Special Note: If every barrel you haul has to be moved a considerable distance (25 or more miles one way) before unloading, then the bobtail loses much of its advantage. The longer the average haul, the more you want a tractor-trailer unit doing the work.
Great information! Thanks for the quick response.
You're welcome. For the time being, I'm only online during the evenings...but try not to miss any days.
Are the vacume truck a lot more work than water hauling trucks or are they the same thing? seen jobs say water hauling and some say vac trucks?
They're the same thing. Vacuum (from a pump mounted on either the trailer or tuck tractor) pulls a load into the tanker and blows it back out--either into another tank or into a storage pit.
Ok, i seen guys say that water hauling about as good as it gets, is crud hauling more work?
Define "crud". I truly have no idea what you mean by that.
Crude is short for crude oil ,i have read Most of your comments and posts ,very informative and usefull ,i am currently out in the oilpatch new town ,parshall areas nightly ,as the saying goes ,theres money in them thar hills,LOL i myself id going to go the owner op route its a trade off in anything u do good or bad ,the money is here to get its up to us to go out and get it the top pay rate from my company is ,130 to 90 per hr ,thats with gold spur trucking ,out of minot nd / tuson az good luck and stay safe out here its a no bullsht zone out here and it will bite When she feels the need ,with that being said ,see you in the fields
Oh, CRUDE. Duh.
Well, I guess crude could be considered kind of cruddy.
I've never hauled crude oil so can't tell you how much work it might be. There's plenty of work involved just with water, hauling, though; I can say that much. Four-inch hoses in 30' lengths can give you at least a small workout at times. Three-rail heavy duty chains can run up to 200' when clogged with mud and/or ice. You're trekking up and down ladders (to the tops of various tanks and back) on a daily basis. Kept me in tiptop shape; I definitely didn't need a gym membership.
GOLD SPUR TRUCKING, eh? Thanks--and, good info on the $130 to $90 per hour. Sounds right in the ballpark to me, very close to the way Colorado was running when I was there.
Feel free to keep us posted on your owner op endeavor. With a little bit of the luck o' the Irish (or whoever), you should be able to gross a quarter mil annually and net (after expenses but before taxes) close to $160,000.
At least those are the numbers I crunched when I was planning to go that route in Sept.-Oct. of 2008.
Thank you for this hub. I am also looking to try to start my own water haul business and am quite the virgin to oilfield knowledge but have driven my own Grapple Log truck for the past 5 years. ( bobtail straight truck w/ loader mounted behind the cab.) I have found numerous " water trucks" for sale online but am not personally able to know the difference or what I should be looking for,I want a bobtail truck. The confusion for me is...a 4000 gallon tank, is this a "vacuum" truck, or if it is simply a gravity fed tank can I add a PTO driven pump to this truck or do i need a specific type of of tank to handle the pressures of a pump? where do i begin looking, stainless steel, steel comp, or aluminum tanks? I guess what I would like to know is, what exact type of truck were you planning on building ? Front/rear axle weights, type of suspension (and what suspension NOT to use)adequate motor size, and any other helpful hints you may have. i plan to- in the near future- actually get my boots on the ground at the actual location to see how the system works, but in the mean time the more advice you could give me would help tremendlously, I mean seems funny to me that going to war in iraq was not as scary as starting my own water haul business, but if I do my homework and some knowledge help from you will better my understanding. Thanks, semper fidelis.
usmc01: Never had a log truck, but I did once work as a faller and had my own (leased) Pettibone front end loader with a log grapple on it.
Went broke, but not the fault of the Pettibone.
By the numbers:
1. To get to "barrel size" (which is what you always need to know for the oilpatch), divide gallons by 42. Thus, the 4,000 gallons = a 95 barrel tank. That's pretty sizeable for the patch. There are a number of 100 barrel units out there, and they're popular with the customers ('cause they haul more) but they're also clumsy, top-heavy, and more prone to breakdowns (due to the extra weight) than the "default" 80 barrel size.
2. Most ads for vac trucks state that they are indeed vacuum trucks--but I seriously doubt there are many "gravity feed" tanks out there. What on Earth would those be good for? (Not much, he said.) You might want to call the seller to ask that question, though.
Okay, since you wanted to know what I was going to build:
1. 80 barrel steel tank, not stainless. The aluminum, being lighter, mean you can legally haul more--but the patch is rough on equipment, and a minor accident that might no more than scratch the paint on steel could total the aluminum.
2. I wanted (for a truck) an International (first choice), or if I couldn't get that on the right terms--well, the one I had lined up in my sights was actually a three year old Mack. The parts are proprietary (you can only get them from Mack dealers) and that's a pain, but they make some good units.
Not that there's anything wrong with the other brands (except Sterling, which is just a glorified Ford--would take one, but last choice).
3. My memory on truck specs is rusty (gave up on the project 3 years ago), but IF I recall correctly, I found the truck I wanted simply because it had been set up for the oilpatch when it was first built. (I didn't build one but went for late model used.) You certainly don't want anything higher-geared than a 4.11 rear end, and I believe it had 46,000 pound rated axles.
For suspension, you've got to have heavy duty leaf all around, and sooner or later you may break even one of those every so often. My employer's Internationals were set up perfectly for the oilpatch (he'd been a driver himself), and we still averaged a busted spring or two every year.
For transmissions, DEFINITELY 18-speed (probably Eaton, though Mack may have their own version). Beats any other oilpatch tranny all hollow. Sounds like a lot of gears, but it's not really under the rugged conditions (mixed with highway), and you'll use every one of 'em sooner or later (except maybe super-granny if you're lucky).
GOT TO HAVE heated mirrors. Otherwise, during a North Dakota winter, you'll be utterly blind to the rear much of the time--an obviously deadly situation.
As much fuel tank capacity as possible, although with a bobtail that's less critical than with a tractor which may suddenly have to run an extra couple hundred miles before the shift is over.
Motor size. Hm. Trying to recall...seems to me most of those I drove most recently (2006-2009) were all between 360 to 460 horses, but don't quote me on that. I know you don't need the 600 horse monsters some of the over-the-road speed demon owner operators favor. And the 18 speed tranny does give a little more room to wiggle on engine size.
It's not surprising to me that starting your own business is scarier than going to war in Iraq. After all, the Corps at least gave you some kind of track to run on. Winging it solo is a whole different ball of wax.
And before I forget: Thank you for your service.
Feel free to ask more questions as needed; if I don't have an answer, I can probably point you in the right direction to find it.
Thank you for this info. I know I will have more questions in the near future.
Been in the patch for over three years started with one truck. Now I have four and three trailers. Most trucking companys in the patch try to run kw T800; most trl sizes gor vac trl is 130 for steel 150 plus for aluminum; ask questions before coming out; someone says tyhey pay every two weeks when is the two weeks starting; oil companys pay on average 30 60 90 days depending on what you are hauling. Then find out how busy are they in the slow times, right now there seems to be alot of small companys sitting looking for work. remember if you decide to come first find housing, this is not always easy and now you are in the patch so everything is inflatted. what cost for a 1 room apartment 3 years ago may now run you $1000 dollars more a month; Good luck find someone reputable to lease on with and hopefully everything goes goood.
Waterhauler: Great info; thanks for the post.
The only thing you state here that has me wondering a bit is the remark that "most" companies try for the Kenworth T800. That's a great truck; no doubt about it. But in the Colorado patch, while we did see plenty of the KW's, they didn't add up to a "majority" by any means.
Interesting.
What about a UIC? Do I need to get this permit to haul Frac water, or what does the UIC even do and how much will it cost and whats the process to get it? I was told I will probably need 1 mil$ insurance coverage and also get bonded? I don't expect the process to be easy but it seems like it's stacked against the "up-and-come'r".
Someone asked for a good rag to read, oil patch hotline is the one i read, Being a leaser with a company and being told over and over how fast this could come to an end,i like to keep an eye om what the oil companys are doing and this tells alot about how much they are dumping into these region.. as for the trucks i guess the kw are easiest to get parts for not to mention 3of the 4 frac companys i can think of run these trucks..
usmc01: Never heard of a UIC permit, so I looked it up. Stands for "Underground Injection Control". The EPA page on it says that it applies to "injection wells", that the requirements vary from locale to locale, and that the injection well owners are responsible for checking out applicable requirements.
Now, I DON'T know if you'll need one (permit) in ND to haul water, frac or otherwise. It wouldn't make sense, but then again, plenty of governmental regs don't.
However, you're the first to bring this up here. Others (including truck owners) have posted without mentioning it. Maybe some of them (truckers currently operating in ND) can let us know if that's a big deal for the water hauling owner operator or not.
Waterhauler: Makes sense; thanks for the additional insight.
Could you respond to usmc01's query about the UIC permit? Has that been an issue in your experience?
I don't know if you need this permit, if you are leased to someone and that is what I am....if you are doing it on your own that would be the only reason.You asked about getting haz-mat, nobody hauling water needs it, wheather it's production water/salt water or frac water. 90% of the people out here don't have haz-mat, just the people who are hauling oil. REMEMBER there is more jobs out here than just water hauling for truck drivers in the patch, there is the gravel haulers, pipe haulers,and sand haulers. Ghost: I am not trying to step on your toes but, when i first came out here I had a hard time to get people to tell me the facts about life and the jobs out here. Good luck!!
Waterhauler, you're ANYTHING BUT stepping on my toes. I tend to talk water hauling because that's what I did most recently and therefore what I know best--but everything you've posted fits my own picture of the patch to a T.
I didn't have HazMat in Colorado, either, since I'd dropped it rather than pay the feds to investigate me, myself, and I. Basically just pi**ed me off. And only one out of ten or so companies in that area cared.
Glad to have it from the horse's mouth for North Dakota.
Thank you both for the information, Is it hard as for a single truck owner ( water, brine, pipe, gravel haul)to get my foot in the door or does the oil companies etc only look to the bigger outfits for help? I would love to expand my truck outfit in the future but I would prefer to start with one truck and get my boots on the ground and go from there. I was told by one person that the oil companies like to help out the small outfits like me to make themselves look good, but than others say they don't. Thanks again for the wealth of info you are providing. I am going to check out oil patch hotline.
I strongly suspect it depends on the company. Some of the major energy outfits hire their water haulers ONLY through Corporate headquarters. Those folks logically wouldn't much like having to deal with a guy sporting only one truck.
But a lot of the oil companies do it differently in that the company hand has the responisbility for hiring and firing the truckers. THOSE guys, by and large, would logically have more motivation to help out the little guy.
Why?
Because in that one-man-one-rig arrangement, he can benefit greatly from dealing with even one really good driver who owns just one truck. If he's "most of your business", you're going to take REALLY good care of him--get him as many loads of water as he needs as fast as he needs them--or wear yourself out trying.
So: Were it me, the first thing I'd be asking people would be, "Um, do you hire your water haulers, or does that decision get bucked up the line?"
If HE has the authority, then you make your pitch about what an outstanding service provider you truly are.
How long does it take to unload? I ve been told a boy might have to be sitting out at the well for 2 3 days ready to unload as they need you.
That can happen (the long wait) when they're running a surface cementing job, but that's about the only time I know about. You WANT those (surface job on-standby assignments) if you can get 'em, because for hours on end you may be free enough to nap in your truck, read, munch lunch, whatever--and get paid for it. On Halliburton jobs (hauling dry cement) back in the day, I did get a couple of surface jobs that ran that long.
On the other hand, the cementing jobs in Colorado seemed to go quicker on the average. Believe the longest I ever sat on location was something like 18 hours. Racking up overtime.
OTHER than that, you can unload (depending on conditions) as quickly as ten minutes or so (if blowing off into a pit under full pressure) or as slowly as twenty to thirty minutes (if needing to ease the water into a nearly full tank under very low pressure so you don't blow a spill over the top).
your post is very interesting. Im looking at buy a truck to haul water in the nd cause i hear its the hot thing now. how commen is the contrats and hours? do you have to get your own trailer or can you pull there's? thanks for any help.
Hours vary considerably from company to company, but in this boom you can expect them to be long--60 hours per week minimum but generally a lot more than that.
You can sometimes find companies who'll have you pull their trailer, but it's generally better to have your own. Sometimes a company that ONCE provided trailers will quit the practice in midstream.
If you get a truck and have it properly D.O.T. registered and insured and all that, you should be able to find any number of companies who'll take you on as an owner operator. But be careful; check them out before your hire on. Some of them will be almighty slow in paying you or not pay you at all.
Word on the street will tell you who.
What might a decent trailer cost to start up? Looking to spend around 25k on a truck figuar fule will cost around 400 a day incurance around 1500 a month. Just trying to get a good game plan together. Any pointers you have?
Rather than throw figures at you, I'd recommend you check out trailers for sale at this link:
http://www.truckpaper.com/Default.aspx
That online paper will always have current prices--which of course would be out of date immediately if I listed them here.
One other thought (since you asked for "any pointers"). Were I to tackle this in the Here and Now--and with limited funds for starting out buying equipment--I'd take a look at going with a bobtail truck. (That's a truck with the tank mounted directly on the chassis, no trailer.) EXCEPT you'd need to check with somebody in the know in North Dakota BECAUSE at least one person who posted said the bobtails aren't much in demand in North Dakota.
They certainly are in Colorado, but that's way more mountainous, often "tight" terrain.
IF the bobtail is a viable option, then HERE'S a truck I'd give a serious looksee:
http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.as
Admittedly, I'm a fan of International trucks. But aside from that, it's got the Jake Brake (engine brake) which is essential. Don't much like the 10 speed transmission, but you can get by with that on a bobtail (not on a tractor-trailer combo where an 18 speed is best and a 13 speed "okay"). The 100 bbl tank is one of the "oversized" versions for a bobtail, and that's good.
On the flip side: The 1996 year model definitely sucks, as does the nearly half million miles on the odometer--which is nothing on a highway unit but "forever" when it comes to offroad miles.
However, a lot of these units don't start out as oilpatch workers. It's possible this truck went over the road until a few years ago and was only THEN converted for water hauling. Which are things you'd want to find out before getting serious about the unit.
If the tank is much more than 5 years old, I'd hesitate--but it may or may not be. You never know until you ask.
I do like the Denver Gardner pump, and I also suspect the seller is telling the truth when he says "everything works perfectly". Plus the price is right ($35,000).
On the REALLY flip side, some companies WILL NOT TAKE YOU ON if your truck is more than 5 or 6 years old--so you'd need to take that into consideration, too.
Yever have anything to do with haulin frac sand? Ime wonderin how to get all learned up on that to.
Are you still hauling water in CO. ? If so what's the going rate there? Hows the market there as far as a new company getting on?
Boo: You asked this on another page of mine. As I said there, no, I've never hauled frac sand. I know it's really fine-grained stuff, that it generally gets delivered in bottom-exit triple-cone-belly type trailers, and that the drivers often get more highway time than water haulers because the supply points are maybe a couple hundred miles from a well site.
But that's ALL I know.
nilhines26: No, I left the water hauling job and Colorado in early 2009. However, my old employer is still very much in business, and they have a website:
http://www.productiontransport.us/
Nobody knows Colorado water hauling better than they do. If you talk to the General Manager or one of the owners, they can most certainly bring you up to date. Just tell 'em Ghost sent you. Which ought so get a chuckle out of somebody, GHOST referring BOO their way.
Thanks ...This is really great
You're very welcome; glad you found it useful.
woundering im planning on retyiring in 7-8 years been driving sence 1979 looking to find out more on the oil fields,frc hauling ect in nw arkasas any ideas who to contact
old biker, I don't know anybody in Arkansas, BUT you should be able to do a bit of Googling and come up with a number of places to start looking. I tried that (with some success) just now from two angles:
1. From the 411.com website, entering "oilfield trucking" or "water hauling" (or whatever trips your trigger) does pull up some possible leads. To use that site, though, you have go at it one town or city at a time, since that's a required entry before the site will search for you.
2. Experimenting with your search terms straight from Google tends to pull up different companies and/or headhunters.
One other angle might be to contact a few Chambers of Commerca by phone. Just ask if the oilpatch is up and running in their areas, and who some of the related trucking companies might be.
Thats' the best I can come up with at the moment; hope it helps.
I am a rookie driver fresh out of school with all endorsements and am planning to go to north dakota asap.I'm looking at water hauling.I'm 59 but fit and resourceful.What are my chances?I don't seem to get anywhere with online applications so I'm gonna just jump in feet first come hell or high water?Any tips
Your chances are Excellent to Better Than That--no reason you can't land a water hauling job if you go hammer 'em face to face. One of the people who posted on my "other Hub" titled, "Finding a Job in North Dakota: The Bakken Oil Drilling Boom" just got 3 job offers her first day banging on North Dakota doors--and ALL of them from people who'd ignored her when she applied online. So tip #1 you've already figured out: It helps to be there.
For other tips, I recommend the Bakken Hub. Here's the link:
Ghost
Do I need any type of permits to haul water? We are looking to invest 1 million dollars and purchase 5 tractors and new trailers in south Texas.
I don't know about North Dakota. In Colorado, when I was setting up my corporation (that never got off the ground), no water hauling permits per se were needed. You did need "the usual", i.e. D.O.T. number, I.R.S. number, registration with the state as a corp. (or LLC, whichever form is best for you--I was a loner, & Sub S always worked best for me).
Unless we get lucky and somebody who's actually operating up there posts on here with a definitive answer, I'd say a few phone calls to the State (ND), maybe bring up the permits angle while you're getting registered, etc., would be essential.
Good for you on the investment, by the way. If I'd had access to a fifth of that in 2008, I'd still be working the patch in Colorado...and most likely never would have found the time to write this Hub.
Hey ghost, what are you doing now for work? Do you want to go back, I mean you seem very interested in it and look like you had a lot of passion for this job.
Currently, at age 68, I'm officially "retired", although writing pretty much full time at HubPages. Built a home we (seriously) call the Border Fort near the Mexican border single handed. When I'm not writing or building or "whatever", got a deeply disabled redhead wife to care for...and at this point, leaving her alone to pull a 12 hour shift (or more) would be unthinkable.
Specific goals for this year (so far):
1. Kick an oil company's butt. I inherited mineral rights in the Bakken that started paying royalties on one of two leases in late October. The other lease SHOULD be paying, but that company is playing, "Let's play roadblock!" I'll get 'em--got an attorney on it, doing what they call Title Curative work for me--but no telling how long it'll take.
2. On the political side, I'm active in our tiny but highly effective Tea Party group and also committed to doing my bit in helping Obama fulfill his destiny in November as the nation's worst one term President ever.
3. On the writing side in general, it's a vary rare (emergency only) day when I don't publish at least one Hub--occasionally as many as four. Have 1,087 of 'em published at the moment with a wider "range" (I think) than any other writer on HubPages.
Thus, all in all, heading back to the patch would not seem to be in the cards, at least at the moment. I could easily handle the work--haven't slowed down in the least--but definitely have a whole host of other obligations.
Well good for you. You seam you have a good eye on life. I'm pleased to have gotten the chance to talk to you. Maybe one day we can get a pot of coffee and shoot some bull. Thanks.
You're very welcome, and the possibility of coffee-plus-bull sounds good.
can anyone tell me the required distance from the kingpin to the rear axle in north dakota for a tanker trailer?
I can't tell you that offhand, but it sounds like you must run in California--since as far as I know, California is (or at least used to be) the only state to make a big stink about kingpin-to-axle distance.
thx so much will look into it your the best
Back atcha; go for it! :)
I was wondering what would be considered for a 130 barrel vacuum truck legal loads of brine and fresh water in Tx.? If that made any sense at all ha.
By the way ghost, the company that but the truck in the river a few years ago does not have trucks in colorado anymore... Just to share.
Put the truck... My bad..
nin435: I don't know the weight of brine, but with our heavy duty rigs designed to stand up in the patch, a full load of fresh water tended to run at least 85,000 lb. (5,000 over the legal limit) or more. A lot of the drivers had marked off levels on the sight tubes that would keep the load legal (if they were loaded on level ground in the first place). I couldn't tell you the EXACT amount of "space at the top" that would be needed without running a few loads across Cat scales (or some such) to figure it out for a given rig. Owner operators who were running sleeper cabs vs. daycabs, for instance, make a difference.
Jay_myers24: THANKS for that update. Not too surprising.
Was thinking about getting started with a few trucks and 130bbl trailers. Is there plenty of money to be made as I heard this is some sort of gold rush for water haulers? Honestly, what could be made????
It CAN be a "gold rush" IF you pick a boom area AND "do it right". You don't want to just dive off a cliff blindfolded into this business and figure the Money Tree is going to automatically assault you with riches.
First, a few DOWNSIDES:
1. Like any gold rush, there's always competition, and it's not always pretty. Claim jumpers, you know. My former employer was forced to terminate a long time owner operator once (for example) after the trucker attempted to bribe a rig's water work away from the company with a bucket of chicken and a fifth of whiskey.
Meaning, you've got to have a smidgen of common sense, sales smarts, and pure dee toughness. It's no child's game.
2. The oilpatch is very, very tough on equipment. You need the best vacuum pumps, trailers tailored for the work, and seriously heavy duty underpinnings and running gears for your tractor-trailer combos...and STILL you're going to have breakdowns. Busted springs, exhaust systems jolting loose, the works.
3. There WILL be accidents. If you're lucky, few if any will be chargeable or show up at the DMV or on your insurance company's records. But I've seen jacknife problems on black ice, rollovers, and (in my personal case) underqualified drivers who slide their rigs into yours because they're just not good enough when the mud goes hardcore on the downgrade.
HOWEVER, yes, there's money to be made with all of that IF you make the cut. My numbers may be a bit on the conservative side--I've been out of the industry for 3 years now, and I much prefer a margin of error in my calculations--but rougly speaking:
A. If you can keep each truck rolling "most of the time" (you need a top mechanic or two!), you should be able to GROSS around $300,000 per year.
B. With luck (and in this business, you'll need it), figure $100,000 of that goes to the driver, $100,000 goes back into the truck one way or another, and you bank $100,000.
C. Except, Murphy's Law is always in force, "stuff happens", so in the end, you cut your expectations to banking just half of that, or $50,000 (before income taxes).
Or something like that.
These numbers do NOT include the expenses for any office work, including accounting, plus perhaps the hiring of a Supervisor or Safety person.
And, one caution: I wouldn't recommend jumping in with a bunch of trucks and no oilfield experrience UNLESS you can find and hire a lead (experienced) driver or two to lead the way. Water hauling in the oilpatch is not rocket science, but it's not all that forgiving of f**kups, either. Accidentally blow one load of frac water all over the place in a really ugly spill, and you could be out of business in a heartbeat.
So we invested all our money on truck and going to ND! How much money should i expect my husband to bring in?
Hm. Well, that's going to depend a whole bunch on who he finds to take him on as an owner operator. Each company has its own set of per-hour rates for truck + driver. And not all of them pay up; please tell your husband I recommend checking out trucking companies before signing on with them. It also depends somewhat on whether or not you have your own tanker trailer.
But presuming (for lack of more complete data) that we're talking about a tractor-trailer combo plus your husband as driver AND that he signs on with an ethical outfit AND that you purchased a tough enough truck to stay up and running most of the time, an annual gross of $240,000 would not be unreasonable. Sometimes a good bit more, but that number should be "safe".
A third of that (on average) will need to go right back into the truck--payments, upkeep, insurance, licensing, etc.
We've been running 3 trucks in ND hauling water for 8 months and it has not been easy. It is very difficult to find work as an owner operator there, and then when you do get leased on with a company, you have to compete for hours which they give to their own trucks first. Owner operators are usually last in line to get the hours. Our trucks have sat more than they have run. It's very competitive for owner operator water haulers right now!
Kd, thanks for posting this heads-up notice. That's information anybody should appreciate (and absorb)--before making the jump to truck ownership, if at all possible.
For our other readers: Today is February 20, 2012. Just FYI, so you know the timeline.
And, I can see how the owner operator market could have gotten close to the "saturation point". For some months now (possibly almost as many as Kd has been hauling in ND), the # of drilling rigs operating in the state has been at a plateau of around 200, give or take 5 either way.
That's a lot of water hauling business, but it's not inexhaustible.
Thanks for the info. Well yes we got tank and truck. We are being told all trucks are stopped. Kinda worried. Lets see what happens. We just jumped into this. We should have just went out there and checked things out. Oh well :D
"All trucks are stopped?" What does that even MEAN? I can assure you there are still trucks hauling water in the North Dakota oilpatch as we speak. Are you being told there is simply no room for more haulers to find a piece of the pie, or...??
One thing you do need to realize, though: If you have your own rig (as you do), there is ALWAYS water hauling work that can be found sooner or later. Even if the Bakken were to shut down entirely (which does not seem likely, but IF), there are other busy oil and/or gas drilling areas in the country. Parts of Wyoming and Texas, for example. The pay in one state may or may not compare to its neighbor, but will still be enough to make a living.
Yes, it's a pain (and a costly one) to have to move a trucking operation from state to state--the filings with each new state, for example. But still. Those things do have wheels.
:D all the trucks are stoppef where my husband is trying to squeeze in at. He is going to go down there and see for himself and go asking around. I love this blog! All the answers are here! Thx so much
Got it, and glad this page is turning out to be helpful.
Just at a guess, if all the trucks are stopped at a particular company, one of two things has likely occurred:
1. D.O.T. shut 'em down for too many safety and/or logbook violations (or some such), or
2. They were relying on one big contract (or at most a few such) and got fired by the oil rigs they were supplying. In which case, there'd be no work till they could sell themselves to somebody else as Aces High water haulers.
There are other (but uglier) possibilities. Let us know what your husband finds out.
I have heard a rumors (not sure if they're true) that water hauling and overall production has slowed down because they are having problems with not having enough capacity to haul the oil away. Fracking has slowed down, but we have been hauling a little bit lately, meaning a small job today after not working at all for 6 days. Hopefully it will pick up when the weather gets warmer and they solve the take away capacity problems!
That's quite possible. If there's a lack of "hauling" capacity for oil, it would most logically be within the pipeline--or rather, at the end of the pipeline where storage capacity could be getting maxed out. It's well known within the industry that our storage & processing infrastructure (in Oklahoma, for example) is not as far ahead of the curve as it should be.
Crossing our fingers for you.
Howdy,
You mentioned that you would prefer International over other's. Is the International tractors more reliable, easier to get parts for? You also mentioned about the suspension for these tractors. Can you buy a rig with it already set up heavy duty? Like buying a 1500 series pickup vs. a 3500 series.
Does the U.S. import any crude oil now since the big find?
I heard one time that are beautiful country needs an crazy amount of oil per day for normal operation.
Let's say Ghost you where going to buy a 250b tanker new aluminum, would you have it lined or not. Hauling crude with it.
Thanks again for your time and wisdom!
David: I can't say with any authority that IHC tractors ARE more reliable...just that they've always FELT that way to me. The Petes I drove were always either (a) way old and ready to break or (b) newer with weird computer issues. But Kenworth, Pete, and Mack all have people who swear by them.
Mack is more expensive to fix (at least sometimes) because their parts are proprietary; you can't buy them anywhere other than a Mack dealership.
If you're buying a NEW rig and have the time, you can spec it out--order it set up with heavy duty running gears, etc. If it's off the lot at a dealer in or near the oilpatch, you MAY find just what you want right there--or you may not. It's a treasure hunt for sure.
Yes, we import a LOT of crude oil. In part because we're not drilling enough in nearly enough places (thanks to Obama), and in part because quite a bit of our oil is actually being exported to other countries--where the prices are higher than here.
A 250 bbl tanker? David, I can't even picture one of those. I've not hauled crude, just water, but a "standard" water tanker is 130 bbl (steel). I'm thinking 250 bbl, even with aluminum, would require extra axles to come anywhere near legality on the highways.
I have to plead ignorance on the lining. For water, I wouldn't go with aluminum simply because the offroad work is so deadly hard on equipment--and a "ding" that would more or less bounce off a steel trailer could really damage an aluminum tank. But crude haulers no doubt get a lot more highway time, so perhaps that's a workable tradeoff.
Bottom line: For crude, you're "above my pay grade", so to speak.
So much for my "wisdom", eh? :) But at least I don't pretend to know more than I know....
Be careful in the winter when your valves freeze up.most people use weed burners to thaw
Them out. My brother had a tanker explode ,and was nearly killed .the hose sipped and shattered his leg and it blew off all the big covers on the tank
Kenworth, thanks for that heads up.
EXACTLY what he said. If you're going to use a weed burner, you need to know a couple of things:
1. If the tank is full of fresh water--you had to park it after pulling a lod from a pond or some such--there's not much risk of explosion.
2. If it's full of anything else (production water, frac water, whatever), beware.
3. If it's empty (except for that last little bit that froze your valves) be "double ware". It's the fumes that make the big booms, not the liquids.
If you've got it to do but there's reason for worry, it's best to climb up on top and open one of the big top hatches to vent the tank. If the warming gases (from the weed burner) can escape as they're heating up, no kablooey.
Howdy Ghost,
Let's say we got a 250bbl tanker aluminum full of crude with a tri-axel and tractor with a tri-axel and it's summer in ND. Would there be any weight restriction? What does crude weigh in at per/gal.? What horse power would i need and gears to pull this all day long?
David, there's ALWAYS a weight restriction, both "per axle" and for the overall gross vehicle weight. Two extra axles would maybe get you to where you could permit for 112,000 lb. GVW instead of 80,000. But you're talking (as I've already said) in an area (heavy hauling) where I have NO experience. You really need to talk to the State of ND about weight issues.
Light sweet crude weighs roughly 7 lb. per gallon, which would be 294 lb. per barrel. 250 x 294 = 73,500 lb. cargo wt. At 40,000 lb. of heavy tractor (with tri-axles) to that, and you're at 113,500 lb. That sounds close, so maybe it's more or less doable.
But please understand: I DON'T REALLY HAVE THE ANSWERS; YOU NEED TO DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH.
Horsepower...not under 625 (AT A GUESS). Gears: 18 speed transmission, nothing less.
great info your putting out i know you have only hauled water so my question might be out of your expertise.
However I am looking at maybe hauling frac sand i question is pay for this paid like the water haulers pay? I also have a dump truck with a pup and backhoe does this type of equipment have any use in the oil feild
I've also hauled dry cement (for Halliburton, back in 1981-'82). But no, not frac sand.
But I HAVE talked to a frac sand hauler or two when we were both working the same wellhead location in the middle of a long night shift. Those drivers told me that yes, they were also paid by the hour--either as company drivers or as a driver-plus-rig O/O combo. Though they got more highway time than water haulers (having to bring the sand from more distant locations), they did still face the stuck-on-location times that make by-the-mile pay unworkable.
There's a lot of backhoe work available in the oil patch. I don't know which service companies get which contracts, but there are reserve pits to be dug, ditto for pipeline ditches, etc. And with all of the dirt-surfaced service roads spider-webbing the patch between well locations, yes, dump trucks get a lot of use.
How comptetive at any given moment in any given area, I couldn't say. Only boots on the ground, checking out the area personally, could give you a "safe" read on that.
And finally: Before any drilling rig sets up on location, a "location" has to be PREPARED. This often involves a lot of fill material to build up a "level" area, especially in mountainous terrain. (If you're out on Kansas-flat prairie, it doesn't take as much, obviously.)
Good Morning Mr. Ghost32:
Wow...I do not know how I arrived at this page, but I am amazed! What informative reading. I may be reaching way out there, but I imagine that is what the internet is all about.
I have a 2005 Freightliner Tractor and a 2003 VE 130Bbl Vacuum Tanker Trailer I am selling. I was trying to find a small company or operator in ND that might be interested.
Do you have any suggestions for me as to how I should go about selling this?
Thank you very much,
Miss A~
Good morning, Miss Annette.
The first thing I'd try would be a classified ad in the Williston Herald (available in print and online at willistonherald.com). Of course, a lot of people will be happier if your rig is sitting IN North Dakota, but the ad would certainly be a starting point.
If that doesn't work, I'm betting that if you could find a place to park in or around Williston with a big FOR SALE sign on your truck, you'd stir up a ton of interest. But that's the hardcore route. Much easier to start with the ad.
Hi Fred,
I am new to this so I want to say thank for having this new information.
Vote up!
You're welcome, Johan, and you're also a rare human being. Few people read up on "different things" like this unless they've got some compelling reason to do so.
Thanks for the vote up!
Ghost you have been a big help with understanding this industry. I am 56 and have been living in Brazil for the last 7 years. I have a family here and living comfortably after selling my business in NY in 2004. But…. I miss my country and culture. I am planning on returning soon, going to CDL school and driving to the Bakken to look for work. My goal is to attach myself to a experienced water hauling company for three years then go off on my own.
I read in your previous posts that age doesn't seem to factor into hiring. I have been reading extensively about trucking and look forward to this new endeavor. Anymore advice for newbies would be appreciated.
Thanks again.
John
Thanks for the kudos, John. Your plan makes sense to me...and one tidbit of advice does occur to me:
Were it me in your position (and I've definitely been there, or close enough), I'd do my dangedest to get hired by a small company, Fox Run Transportation. Don't have their contact info offhand, but they're working Williston, have hired at least one of our readers (on the job hunting hubs), and that cowboy (literally, as I am) is filing highly favorable reports on them (through his wife, who posts as HelpingMyHubby).
Advantages to an outfit like Fox Run:
1. Being a smaller company, every driver matters. He knows the boss, and the boss knows him. No "faceless number" dispatches.
2. Also, because of that, GOOD work (as well as bad, of course) is noticed immediately. When I was with P.T. in Colorado (similar firm), I got a good deal of appreciation and consideration. Volunteered to be a charter member of their full time night shift crew, quit 'em once to start an online business. Went broke and hired right back on; they were delighted to have me back.
PLUS, when I decided to buy my own bobtail, formed Tryad Transportation Inc., they were VERY willing to keep me on as an owner operator. That never quite happened--but because of Obama's election, over which none of us had control at the time.
3. Fox Run in particular is building itself one helluva fine rep in the Bakken. HelpingMyHubby reports they've now gotten Schlumberger's attention (giant well service outfit, French, 2nd only to Halliburton) and are on Schlumberger's "Call First" list.
Do you happen to know if Fox Run takes on owner operators? They sound like a good company to drive for!
I don't know if they do or not, Kd. You might want to check in on the Hub titled, "Finding a Job in North Dakota: The Bakken Oil Drilling Boom: Spillover". We have a new Fox Run driver's wife posting regularly there.
Also, my information could be off just a little. Not about Fox Run's solid rep, but about Schlumberger having them on the First Call list already. Our regular poster is not aware that they've even started hauling water quite yet--waiting on tankers to arrive, apparently.
But I'd still check 'em out.
Ghost, Thanks for the info. I will arrive in the US at the end of April. CDL school at Sage then off to ND. I will keep you posted. You have been a big help.
Thanks again.
John
Good luck, John. We'll be watching for your updates.
What up in the winter time North Dakota? Certainly some stuff slows down til spring and some people must get laid off. Is there any action for bellydump trailers through the winter? If there is the esteemed organization with wich I am gainfully employed may be willing to bring some tracters to pull bellydumps. If we get treated half way d
Do things slow down in the North Dakota oil business in the winter? Do people get layed off? Is there work available pulling bellydumps threw the winter?
Is all the frac water hauled in vac trailers? Is there any place in the oil drilling scene for old fashion gravity fill from the top unload at the bottom trailers? Thats what our shit trailers are.
What are what they call winch trucks? Is that tracter with a machinery trailer that lets the gooseneck down so you can load or unload over the front of the trailer like a detatchable RGN?
1. I'm not an expert on belly dumps. My guess is they'd have much less work in the winter, though.
2. All frac water is hauled in vac trailers (or bobtails). No gravity-only.
3. A winch truck is simply a tractor with a winch (usually with 100' of cable or so) mounted behind the cab. Frac tanks, for one thing, require the use of a winch truck when they're moved. The cable pulls the front end of the tank up over the specially designed bumper and onto the 5th wheel. There are wheels at the back (only) of the frac tank.
Once the tank is situated in its new location, the process is reversed so that the tractor can ease out from under the front of the tank and lower it gently to the ground.
A highly skilled winch truck driver is worth his weight in gold. An incompetent one is a disaster.
If I can find some kinda management potential type dude in ND who know their way round this oil business that help us out getting started in this there would be a job in it for them. If I got time in a month or so I am coming there to check it out.
Stupid computer! @#%* Anyway my # 715 896 4742. We are very reputable and have references. My benevolent leader is very ambitious and we would come to stay for good and try to build up something worthwhile for everyone involved. We would dig frac water crude or sand haulin machinery movins cool to or anything else we can get into. Somebody please help a brother out.
Boo: No one is likely to call you and/or turn up a management type person for you from this page. The readers here tend to be looking for information only, for one thing. For another, any manager skilled in the trucking business can simply head on out to North Dakota and get hired pretty much on the spot.
The ONLY way an owner could get things going in ND (in my opinion, which is certainly not infallible)would be for him (you) to go to ND personally. Get familiar with how things work there, do the naty hard legwork, and go from there.
The competition is fierce enough that hiring someone to get you set up there just is not likely to work out. Which means you DO have the right idea about going there yourself if/when time permits.
O.K. Im learnin
Story of my life. :)
Whatsa workover rig?
The huge, bitch-to-move drilling rigs make the holes. After they're done and gone, the workover rigs do whatever else needs doing to the already existing hole. These (workover) rigs are much smaller, lighter, and mobile--in fact, self-propelled, with a sort of truck cab and wheels and all.
The derrick actually telescopes into a relatively short arrangement which folds down over the cab when it's time to move.
Inside the well hole, the workover rig crew will run 4" steel tubing down the length of the hole. Inside that, they'll (at separate times) run 1" solid steel rod, at the lower end of which may be the actual oil pump or any one of a variety of tools or instruments. At least, that was the "old school" way, back when I worked on them. The details of "what they're doing downhole" may be a bit different with the current shale oil technology.
In other words, the workover rig is used to "work over" the hole in whatever way is needed at whatever time.
Now see the way you splain stuff I understand. I tried to find this out last night on the internet
and couldnt figure out any of it out. Malso wonderin whatsa gin truck and whatsa bed truck.
A gin truck has a couple of steel pipe "poles" that are "A-framed" with the bottom of the "A" attached at the back of the truck bed. Winch cables lift and lower this A-frame. It's sort of a poor man's crane, used for picking up & moving heavy stuff around a location.
A bed truck is a long wheelbase with the flatbed set up on the chassis instead of trailing behind as a trailer. Again, winches are usually used to pull the load (tank or whatever) up there.
Some bed trucks are heavy duty buggers, with triple rear axles plus two steer axles. Hardcore.
Looking for a poor mans 150 BL trailer for a startup in OK. Any suggestions in OK.
Thank You
Look up frac sand WI. On your coputer. Most of these mines are within 75 miles of my house. Poppin up like dandelions everywhere. You can see this ND oil stuff gonna get nothin but bigger. What might be the biggest one yet gonna be 2 miles from me.
I'm familiar wit frac sand. Didn't know you were in the middle of the main supply sources, though.
Whadaya mean?
About what? You said lots of the frac sand mines are close to your house. I responded to that. Don't understand your question. ???
I thought u meant in the middle of the supply like the stuff was runnin out or something. Does anybody haul frac water and crud with the same trailer or do u have to make any changes. Sometimes if you have to sit out at the well for say 18hrs. is it still possible to run a truck round the clock? Cause how do u switch guys at the enda the shift if the truck is still sittin out in the sticks somewhere waiting to unload?
A water trucker (or cementer, for that matter) can sometimes sit at the well site, getting paid in full, for 18 hours or even much longer. I've seen any number of surface jobs (where they're cementing large-bore casing in place at the top end of a hole, say 1500 to 2000 feet of it or so) go 24 hours, with a rare one running 48 or more.
There are a couple of ways a trucking company will handle that. In Colorado, our employer would sometimes have a Supervisor load fresh drivers into his pickup, run them out to the trucks, and then haul the going-off-duty drivers back to the yard. (We got paid till we reched the yard, fortunately.) But other times, especially in milder weather, there'd be no relief; we'd just stick with it till the job till the job was done.
Which was NO problem for keeping the logbook legal. Because of the oilpatch exemption, we were properly logged "off duty" until they hollered at us for the water we were carrying. Pretty nice, getting paid full bore overtime for sleeping or reading a book or whatever. You WANT those jobs if you can get 'em.
Say it take halfa million gals. a water to frac a well. How many ton of sand does it take?
No idea, Boo. Never been a frac hand per se.
Do you know anything about hauling water in Texas
Not much. What I do know could summed up as follows:
1. The work is more or less the same; water hauling is water hauling, be it in Texas, Colorado, or North Dakota.
2. From recent posts by people working there, Texas does have plenty of work available.
3. It pays less per hour than North Dakota, but the weather's warmer in the winter, and there's no housing crunch.
4. You're much less likely to freeze a sight tube to the bursting point or freeze the valves shut in Texas.
What happens to frac water after its used? I ve read its recycled. That mean its pumped back up outa the well and hauled away? as a.water hauler did you ever do that? Zit the same trailers?
Sometimes it's recycled, which means you might haul it from a frac tank on one well location to a different frac tank on another location. Other times it's hauled away for disposal. Yes, I did that. A LOT. Same trailers.
Can you use an aluminum trailer to haul brine/salt water?
Whada they talkin bout when they re talkin about cementing a well. I think I seen that somewhere.
Hey guys, I ran across this blog tonight. There is some really good stuff on here. I run a new start up company renting Vac Trailers to owner operators. I am wondering what kind of demand there is for rentals and what kind of rates you usually see out there? What kind of features do you look for in a trailer? Is there something a rental company could do better that they aren't doing today?
Thanks and I appreciate any information
Greg, I can't give you any definitive answers--because I didn't even know there WERE companies renting vac trailers to owner operators. Good for you!
So, what a rental company would "do better", I'm not qualifed to say.
I can mention a few things I'd want if I were to get back into the biz and come to you for a rental, though:
1. 130 bbl minimum tank.
2. A way to heat the valves would be nice, for those subzero days when they get frozen solid and have to be thawed. Never seen it done on a trailer, but a few of the bobtail owner operators had a great system: Truck radiator water was actually piped "around" the valves. (That would be almost impossible to make work with a trailer, though.)
3. The best sight tube and/or tank gauge available. Sight tubes freeze & burst easily. Tank valves tend to break down and/or leak around the seals. I always wanted one that had a little patch of (plexiglass??) built into the tank itself...but never actually got to use one like that.
Ghost, would you advise to/not to use aluminum trailers for hauling salt water or any kind of waste water that comes out of wells. We're a new O/O company that is getting started in OK but have an older aluminum 9500 Gallon trailer.
Please advise.
Mike, I honestly don't know enough about aluminum to give you a straight answer. Never pulled one and therefore never had to learn.
I've seen them running in the patch, though.
Were I in your situation, I might give the folks a call at http://www.tigergeneral.com/products/vacuum-water- . They advertise a lot of aluminum tanks for sale (specifically for oilpatch use) and would pretty much have to know something about what they can and can't do.
My GUESS is that the salt water (and/or waste water) is no problem, but (literally) what do I know?
Ghost, thanks for the info.
I guess we are looking for business. Do you know any routes to take to contact or advertise to owner operaors? We would like the guys who don't own their own or don't want to. Getting in that niche is what we are after.
If you have any ideas we are very greatful.
Hm. Were it me, Greg, I think I'd start with something like an ad in the Williston Herald.
"CALLING ALL VAC TRUCK OWNER OPERATORS"
"If you're short a trailer and the company won't let you pull theirs, CALL US. We'll rent you a trailer, swap out and repair when things break down, and send a man out to replace a blown tire...."
Not that I'd literally want to tackle the niche you've chosen. Sounds just specific enough to maybe work, though. :)
The Frog Prince Level 7 Commenter 14 months ago
Interestingly put and informative. The challenges that oil extraction in the Bakken formation bring to bear new methods and technologies. The use of water in the process being one of them.
Thanks for the excellent post and sharing it with your readers.
Kudos!
The Frog